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 Post subject: Monster respawns
 Post Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 6:25 am 
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I apologise in advance if this is covered in the patrons only videos. If this is just let me know and I will watch them tonight after I donate.

Since monsters don't really respawn, and I assume as much with things like trees. Are there plans on making local ecosystems that you can "restock." Like let's say you have a guildhall in a lush forest and someone decides to clearcut your forest. Your option is now looking at a field of stumps hoping it grows back, but maybe if you had someone in your guild with enough botany skill it could be replaced. Obviously this isn't really a top priority that should be in at release, but I think it would be nice to have eventual plans of combatting forms of eco terrorism. Another example is your guild leader finds a dragon nest, and steals a few eggs to take to the guildhall 2k+ miles away. He sets them in a cave to have them grow with the hopes that it will eventually start a quest where the dragon burns down a local village.

I understand things like this are probably impossible hopes for an MMO. But with the sounds of the way your New technologies work it makes it seem like environmental and quest interaction could be possible this way. Yes I understand this game is ment to be played with the vast majority focused on questing, but with such a huge planet available to us it seems like the people who will be playing this game the longest will concentrate on the environmental aspect for their guild. Also it would open up opportunities for guildmasters to even make their own personal campaigns for their guild.


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 Post subject: Re: Monster respawns
 Post Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:32 am 
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Evilbunny wrote:
I apologise in advance if this is covered in the patrons only videos. If this is just let me know and I will watch them tonight after I donate.

Since monsters don't really respawn, and I assume as much with things like trees. Are there plans on making local ecosystems that you can "restock." Like let's say you have a guildhall in a lush forest and someone decides to clearcut your forest. Your option is now looking at a field of stumps hoping it grows back, but maybe if you had someone in your guild with enough botany skill it could be replaced. Obviously this isn't really a top priority that should be in at release, but I think it would be nice to have eventual plans of combatting forms of eco terrorism. Another example is your guild leader finds a dragon nest, and steals a few eggs to take to the guildhall 2k+ miles away. He sets them in a cave to have them grow with the hopes that it will eventually start a quest where the dragon burns down a local village.

I understand things like this are probably impossible hopes for an MMO. But with the sounds of the way your New technologies work it makes it seem like environmental and quest interaction could be possible this way. Yes I understand this game is ment to be played with the vast majority focused on questing, but with such a huge planet available to us it seems like the people who will be playing this game the longest will concentrate on the environmental aspect for their guild. Also it would open up opportunities for guildmasters to even make their own personal campaigns for their guild.


Well, you won't have to worry about eco terrorism. Our game play is based primarily on the massive stories and plots in the world, not chopping down trees. Players won't be able to do that kind of thing as terrorism. If there is a story reason for it, then it may be possible, or in the example you used of a Guild, if they wanted to clear some trees they may, but another player coming in will not be able to do that. However, outside forces will not be able to mess with their Guild area foliage. Changing the environment is just not something players are capable of doing.

You mention our new system, but you also have to understand the crazy complexity of generating a world with trillions of unique plants and trees. Making micro changes to that in real time is a nightmare. We might (and I stress the 'might' in this statement) allow Guild Leadership to magically grow back some foliage or trees in Guild owned land areas, but that is still only a possibility.

Another thing to understand, you won't be walking to anyone's Guild Hall. I've mentioned this before, but the size of our world is not what anyone is used to in games. To walk to a Guild location would take you several REAL months, perhaps years. All travel to a Guild will be through the permanent portal system. We are isolating Guilds on purpose, we don't want them impacting the major stories we put in the game, and this puts them FAR away from developed Territories.

Imagine that you are in, let's say, Texas, in the U.S. and wanted to go to someone's guild in Germany. Let's see, you would have to walk to the east coast, then try to cross an ocean, then walk across Europe. :shock: I'm thinking you would take a plane instead (or in the CoS equivalent, step through a portal).

One last thing, you are assuming that Trees don't respawn if they are destroyed (which would not be done by players, but other natural disasters might do that). That isn't true. Trees and foliage actually grown in CoS. Every tree continues to age, and new trees can sprout and grow.

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 Post subject: Re: Monster respawns
 Post Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:46 am 
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Just imagine if we let players do things like start forest fires. There would be no trees left! Players would run amok in the world destroying everything. If you don't believe that, even with all our laws and governments and police forces, etc., we are still destroying earth.

In a game world, where players have no real repercussions, they would run rampant.

We have a full physics engine in CoS, but it won't be used in 99% of the world for the same reason. Imagine if players could go into any room and move/destroy the furniture. There wouldn't be any furniture, it would all be wiped out. We have to limit the places where players can interact with such objects to story related elements, most taking place in Story RWs where one group of players cannot ruin it for next.

A big environmental sandbox world where players can do anything they want to the objects and foliage is a fantasy that most players dream of, but seldom realize the terrible consequences of actually offering this in a game. The world would be a horrible place after a very short time. This is the reason that no game every does this.

In a real world example, no one policed the Haitian population, and they wanted to make rum, so they burned... everything. Their once beautiful island paradise is now a desert.

Our world gives players an amazing degree of interaction, allowing the choices they make to change the stories they go through. They get unprecedented control of the making and advancement of their character. But, we keep the things they can choose to do limited to things that will not mess up the game for the rest of the players in the world, or soon there would be no world and no players wanting to be in it.

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 Post subject: Re: Monster respawns
 Post Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:37 am 
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I love how fast you respond on these forums. It really gives them a personal feel. Hopefully after the game heads into beta, and release you maintain this same interaction. Sadly once you have a publisher, and need to censor yourselves more I imagine this openness will change a bit.

I also think its great that you want to put guildhalls out in the middle of no mans land. I'm guessing that you have to atleast explore this area before you can choose that as your section of land.

I find it great news that only guild members can affect the foliage. Or whoever the guild grants that permission to. Also the game that I was thinking of that let's you act as an eco-terrorist ingame was wakfu, it was frustrating at times, but it seems like you already thought ahead for deciding what you allow to be affected by other players.


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 Post subject: Re: Monster respawns
 Post Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:42 am 
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Evilbunny wrote:
I love how fast you respond on these forums. It really gives them a personal feel. Hopefully after the game heads into beta, and release you maintain this same interaction. Sadly once you have a publisher, and need to censor yourselves more I imagine this openness will change a bit.

I also think its great that you want to put guildhalls out in the middle of no mans land. I'm guessing that you have to atleast explore this area before you can choose that as your section of land.

I find it great news that only guild members can affect the foliage. Or whoever the guild grants that permission to. Also the game that I was thinking of that let's you act as an eco-terrorist ingame was wakfu, it was frustrating at times, but it seems like you already thought ahead for deciding what you allow to be affected by other players.


Well, as you say, it won't always be like this, it isn't even now! Just some days, (like this holiday weekend), I take a break from working on the game and read up on the comments from our followers. We definitely read everything you guys write, and at least think about it (if we haven't already).

However, I would hope that we can always have a level of communication with the players of our games. It is sad when developers (and publishers) forget for whom they are making these games, and who it is that pays their salaries. Our goals at MMO Magic are simply to give you the most enjoyable games we possibly can. We believe that all a game has to do to be successful is be fun. It just somehow amazes us how some developers and publishers look at it from a different standpoint, one of giving you only as much as they must to get you to buy the game.

This is not true of all developers or publishers, but it is too often true.

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 Post subject: Re: Monster respawns
 Post Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Jatar wrote:
We believe that all a game has to do to be successful is be fun.


Sadly, this is all too often forgotten. I read an interview once of one of the EQ developers where it was mentioned many of the game mechanics common in EQ (split pulls, kiting, charm soloing, AoE groups, etc.) were never intended by the developers, but simply arose through creative players finding holes in the design. For EQ2 and to some extent in later expansions of EQ1 the developers found ways to reduce or eliminate use of those mechanics.

What they failed to understand was this removed a lot of fun from the game as well. Those mechanics were all advanced skills that many people never mastered. The more skilled you were with them the better your reward, but also the greater your risk. They were ways of testing skill with your character. How far can you push the envelope before death catches up with you? By limiting those mechanics they limited the players' ability to test themselves, and their enjoyment of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Monster respawns
 Post Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:01 pm 
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Having played EQ myself (and lots of other MMOs) I wouldn't call kiting "skill." There is no skill in abusing the poor AI of an NPC.

With the varying smarts of our NPCs, kiting might work with a really stupid creature but not with smart ones.

On the other hand, you develop "skills" to use the tools you're provided with. Since the poor machines and AI made kiting, split pulling and AoE'ing possible that's how players played.

It will be interesting to see what players do when enemies don't stand around waiting to die in a big circle, endlessly chase you with no hope of catching you or attacking you as soon as they see you rather than some artificial "aggro range."

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 Post subject: Re: Monster respawns
 Post Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Agreed, it doesn't take much skill to kite a single mob, but when you start adding in multiple mobs and environmental factors there is some player skill involved. I was never very good at kiting; I would usually be so focused on keeping the mobs grouped together that I wouldn't notice the giant I was about to step on. Of course I didn't play a kiting class much either.

Nor do I expect those mechanics to be In CoS either; that was just an example. All I'm trying to say is if the kids are enjoying themselves you should let them (if they aren't hurting anyone) even if they are doing something you hadn't planned.

Morphael wrote:
It will be interesting to see what players do when enemies don't stand around waiting to die in a big circle, endlessly chase you with no hope of catching you or attacking you as soon as they see you rather than some artificial "aggro range."


Yes it will, won't it. I'm looking forward to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Monster respawns
 Post Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 2:13 pm 
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Cawas wrote:
Agreed, it doesn't take much skill to kite a single mob, but when you start adding in multiple mobs and environmental factors there is some player skill involved. I was never very good at kiting; I would usually be so focused on keeping the mobs grouped together that I wouldn't notice the giant I was about to step on. Of course I didn't play a kiting class much either.

Nor do I expect those mechanics to be In CoS either; that was just an example. All I'm trying to say is if the kids are enjoying themselves you should let them (if they aren't hurting anyone) even if they are doing something you hadn't planned.

Morphael wrote:
It will be interesting to see what players do when enemies don't stand around waiting to die in a big circle, endlessly chase you with no hope of catching you or attacking you as soon as they see you rather than some artificial "aggro range."


Yes it will, won't it. I'm looking forward to it.


To look at this a different way, we agree that there should be lots of strategies to use, and it is up to the players to employ them as they wish. This makes a game fun to play. Instead of trying to limit you to one thing in combat (like the Holy Trinity or Tank system) we're attempting to make it so that you must constantly adapt your strategies and figure out how to beat every monster... and the next one won't be exactly the same battle or strategy. Mastery of CoS will involve making use of the best strategy for the situation, not the same strategy for all situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Monster respawns
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:20 am 
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I'm gonna take a stab at actually asking the question this thread is about...

Monster re-spawn times? Is this still a secret type of deal or do monster actually re-spawn? I mean, eventually we will wipe them all out if they have to breed. If they do re-spawn is it something like a a tree falling in the woods with no one around?

I assume they will have "nest" of monsters that you can wipe out, but will it fill itself back up eventually or stay clear? Or will something else just move in, in a couple weeks? Just curious, I can move this to programming if you like, sounds pretty technical now that I'm typing it out. :roll:


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