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 Post subject: Re: Reflected Worlds?
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:16 pm 
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ShadowOfTheAlphaUhm wrote:
RWs aren't numbered or named. You get your own RW for story quests, but quests take place on different worlds. Once all that is tying you to a specific RW is complete, you will then be going to other worlds. The amount of work that would be needed to make any significant change to a world, would take a community, a long time. So there is 1 world dedicated to that. Devil has a point though, even on this 1 community RW, i don't doubt that there will still be vast amounts of land and sea, unexplored by anyone for many years.


Okay, I'm starting to catch on here. I had a look at the Citadel of Sorcery wiki, as I reconsidered what was said on this thread.

cerdom wrote:
I don't get how you can be thrown into an alternate dimension each time you log on, yet your actions are consequential. I mean, if I burn down some castle and kill my arch nemesis, does it really make sense that his castle would be there the next day? I just feel like you can't truly feel like you're impacting a world that's constantly being "reset."


This basic issue still bothers me. If the Citadel of Sorcery itself is THE main RW and the outside in-game world is nothing but localized instances, then I don't see how my actions can be meaningful, especially in terms of consequences.

For example, I kill a bandit leader in one RW. Sure, in that world, that bandit leader stays dead. But, when my purpose in that RW is over (i.e. my current questline is completed), I get transferred to another RW in which that bandit leader may still be alive.

"But, I killed the bandit leader, right? I made the world a better place, right?" Nope. He just got reset. The goalpost just got moved. You have to start over now.

I should just stay in the original RW in question at will and keep on doing things there. In fact, I don't want or need to be bounced around to a new RW. That defeats the very purpose of making RWs persistent. And it makes my experience a jumbled, confusing mess.

Quite simply, the RWs of the Citadel of Sorcery should be a multiverse, in which different RWs represent different possible persistent histories of the land in question. And each player should be able to choose a certain RW to settle in (or resettle in), based on some criteria. That could serve to make CoS not just one game, but many games in one, as the player desires.

As for players getting in each other's way, the sheer size of the world itself should take care of that. Let the players spread out, explore, and get their own stomping grounds.


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 Post subject: Re: Reflected Worlds?
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:57 pm 
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Lunging Wolf wrote:
Quite simply, the RWs of the Citadel of Sorcery should be a multiverse, in which different RWs represent different possible persistent histories of the land in question.

Funny you should mention. The RWs are a multiverse. The reason why your actions matter, is cause the game will remember what you have done and adjust other RWs accordingly. Everything that happens to you, will have consequences. For better or worse, your decisions will persist.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflected Worlds?
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:05 am 
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*BUTTHURT WARNING*
Correct me if i'm wrong but, by what i understood, the RW is much like a channel system, where main things like your castle, is on every channel but the monsters and npc's are different, with the difference that you might be the only player in the channel you were sent to, depending on whether youre in a group or not. This seems like a good way to counter the inherent griefing in COS's questing system, like a random player killing an important npc for you, but, at the same time, it seems like it would remove the impact of the players, monsters and npc's actions on the world. I'll be pretty blatant and say that RW would kill the Immersion for me. My initial thought on this game, and what made me hyped, was that I would make a character, enter The world in one of the countless starting villages and that's it; Millions of players in a huge ass world, all living their lives throughout thousands of cities, towns, villages, castles, etc, each with their peculiar stories. Maybe there's a kingdom up north seizing hold of various towns, or maybe there is a caravan making their way across the world. Oh no! Bartender Bob got killed and I don't have a RW to wipe my tears. I know that it's pointless to struggle against the RW but please developers, try your best to make it a single meaningful world. The thought of entering a RW and being the only player in a 900 million or whatever km² RW is unsettling for me. Even if a thousand players are in a "Community RW", the world is too big for this small amount of players, hell, might as well play trove if thats the case. Ally the RW with the presumption that there wont be PVP outside of the shadow arenas, from what i've heard, and a big chunck of the player's impact on the world is culled down, like strategizing ambushes, destroying castles, salting the land and what not, even though betting real estate and status on the arena might be a thing.
Tl;dr: RW u bad

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 Post subject: Re: Reflected Worlds?
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:47 am 
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Mr Infinity wrote:
*BUTTHURT WARNING*
Correct me if i'm wrong but, by what i understood, the RW is much like a channel system, where main things like your castle, is on every channel but the monsters and npc's are different, with the difference that you might be the only player in the channel you were sent to, depending on whether youre in a group or not. Tl;dr: RW u bad


Not really. There are countless planets, each a different reflection. At times you will travel to a planet by yourself, or with your group, at other times you will travel to a World with LOTS of other players. It all depends on the type of gameplay you want at the time.

Mr Infinity wrote:
*BUTTHURT WARNING*
This seems like a good way to counter the inherent griefing in COS's questing system, like a random player killing an important npc for you, but, at the same time, it seems like it would remove the impact of the players, monsters and npc's actions on the world.Tl;dr: RW u bad


Actually, in CoS you have far more impact on the world, monsters and npc actions than on typical MMO games. where two minutes after you kill a monster the world just resets everything back to where it was before you did a thing. No monsters reset in CoS. Furthermore, actions you take can make changes across all the Reflected Worlds (part of why they are called 'reflected').

In terms of griefing, in other MMOs when a player kills an important NPC, (as you mentioned) that NPC just reappears two minutes (or so) later anyway. So players being in the same world together is not a boon, it is a curse. Let's say you are there to kill a foozle, but 12 other groups are also there to do the same thing. What happens is you all stand around waiting for the dead foozle to respawn, and then the first group to hit it locks in the battle. If you are unlucky, and don't get that first hit in, you have to wait until the foozle dies, and then wait for it to respawn, and the once again play the hit lottery trying to get your chance... this does not add to the enjoyment of a game, it detracts.

In CoS, when you are on a quest that involves something like this, there will be no other groups to 'steal' your monster, no waiting for that monster to respawn.

So, what about the fun of other players being in the world with you? What makes that fun? Seeing them run by? OK, so that's something. What else? Cooperating and working together to solve an issue, that's really fun! But ask yourself, in other MMOs, when do you get to do that? On a Raid? Sure, when else? Most of the time they players have no cooperation possible except if they are in your group.

CoS deals with this in a whole different method. There are CRW worlds (community ) and SRW worlds (Story). It is your choice which one you enter at any given moment, and can move and switch at any given time.

In an SRW you are dealing with deep and complex quest, think something the size and scope of the entire Lord of the Rings books. In this case you are there alone or with your group, so that no other group can mess with your story, make you wait, or grief you in any way.

In a CRW you are dealing with a whole different set of choices in game play, each of which allows players to work together (individually or as groups working with groups) to solve and achieve goals together. It concentrates all game play into things where players work together. Here you have every bit of that massive multiplayer experience you want, and it isn't just window dressing, where you just watch some other player/group trot by. Instead, you work together on common goals.

Mr Infinity wrote:
*BUTTHURT WARNING*
I'll be pretty blatant and say that RW would kill the Immersion for me. My initial thought on this game, and what made me hyped, was that I would make a character, enter The world in one of the countless starting villages and that's it; Millions of players in a huge ass world, all living their lives throughout thousands of cities, towns, villages, castles, etc, each with their peculiar stories. Tl;dr: RW u bad


So, as I showed above, CoS does the opposite of your statement, it increases immersion with lots of game play choices that allow players to exist on the same world and work together in game play designed for that very thing.

Now, as for 'Millions of players in a huge ass world', first off that is an illusion, the other MMOs you have likely played make you choose a Server. On that server there are between 2000 and 10000 (depending on the typical MMO), only a fraction of which are online at the same time. So when you say millions, mostly you are really experiencing hundreds most of the time, a few thousand at peak times. In CoS we do have different servers, no server can handle millions of players, but we don't make you pick one, and you can change to any server at almost any time, at no cost in money or time. You just walk into a portal, choose a different server (one with more player on it for example, if that is your desire) and walk out in that server. So you can actually access millions of different players (if that many are playing the game).


Mr Infinity wrote:
*BUTTHURT WARNING* Maybe there's a kingdom up north seizing hold of various towns, or maybe there is a caravan making their way across the world. Oh no! Bartender Bob got killed and I don't have a RW to wipe my tears. I know that it's pointless to struggle against the RW but please developers, try your best to make it a single meaningful world. The thought of entering a RW and being the only player in a 900 million or whatever km² RW is unsettling for me. Even if a thousand players are in a "Community RW", the world is too big for this small amount of players, hell, might as well play trove if thats the case. Ally the RW with the presumption that there wont be PVP outside of the shadow arenas, from what i've heard, and a big chunck of the player's impact on the world is culled down, like strategizing ambushes, destroying castles, salting the land and what not, even though betting real estate and status on the arena might be a thing.Tl;dr: RW u bad


And actually your statement that "the world is too big for this small amount of players" is also incorrect. CoS has a full planet at our disposal, certainly. And for explorers this is a great thing, and it gives us endless areas to develop as we please... but, players are concentrated into Territories. They are not locked into these territories, far from it, but that's where the developed lands are located, meaning, most story driven content, civilization, etc. These Territories therefor concentrate the players into an area, making encounters by players far more frequent.

Secondly, unlike most other MMOs, our NPC population is a living population. They go about their lives, and are a living part of the world. Even when other players are not around, they are there to give life to the game.

Finally, if you want open world PVP games, there are plenty of them out there. However, CoS is a more personal game, with epic story driven content, large cooperative game play options and personal stories for player who do not go though the game the same as every other player. Their actions impact the worlds, and the future is changed by their actions. Time moves forward and the worlds change. We believe that our game play depth has never been seen by any player in any MMO in history, and that it will be FAR more entertaining. Time will tell.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflected Worlds?
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:05 am 
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Thank you for the quick and extensive response. I agree with you on the incapacity of a server handling millions of players and i can only trust your words when you say that we will see many players running around on CRW, albeit the size of the world, but please enlighten me on some points. When you say that we are able to freely travel between servers, each with countless RW i suppose, how will the social building aspect be handled? Like, will the fort i build with my guild carry through other servers and RW? Or just RW from the current server? Or just the RW i am in? And furthermore, how big is the citadel? Is it the main world where i can build my house? Once again, thank you for your response, it is always nice to see the developers so in touch with the community. It makes me believe more in COS

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 Post subject: Re: Reflected Worlds?
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:34 pm 
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Mr Infinity wrote:
When you say that we are able to freely travel between servers, each with countless RW i suppose, how will the social building aspect be handled? Like, will the fort i build with my guild carry through other servers and RW? Or just RW from the current server? Or just the RW i am in? And furthermore, how big is the citadel? Is it the main world where i can build my house?


I'm not sure of the specifics, but I don't think the RWs will move. It just means that if you create a guild city on a US server's RW, people from other servers can visit it as easily as one from their own server, as well as group up with you, etc. As for the size of the Citadel, i believe it is a few km², it's a decent sized city. Your personal home is build within a guild city or garrison (Citadel run guild).

The main world is simply called that because it was the world the demons were sent to when going through their pr-existing portals, before the creation of the reflected worlds. It's why the citadel was made on that world. You can find out all about this is the later periods of the lore section on the main site.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflected Worlds?
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:31 am 
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ShadowOfTheAlphaUhm wrote:

I'm not sure of the specifics, but I don't think the RWs will move. It just means that if you create a guild city on a US server's RW, people from other servers can visit it as easily as one from their own server, as well as group up with you, etc.


I hope that is the case but unfortunately there are too many implications in a system like that. Like how would they handle the damage done in the guild city from a mob in x RW or players invading from many RW. If you'd ask me, i wouldn't be able to explain how the RW works, and i've read a bunch about it. But my main doubt is how are they going to handle the "ripples" a player makes in a RW to keep the "one living world" feel.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflected Worlds?
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:22 am 
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Mr Infinity wrote:
how would they handle the damage done in the guild city from a mob in x RW or players invading from many RW.


When you claim land for your guild, it only creates it on 1 world and your guild will be the only one on that world. This way, many guilds (if not all) can inhabit "the same" area.

Mr Infinity wrote:
how are they going to handle the "ripples" a player makes in a RW to keep the "one living world" feel.


The stories in CoS will not be able to be "failed" like other games. The options given will be more like; Do i warn the king that an invasion is coming, saving the city, or keep going to rescue the princess whom is about to be executed. You can fail to complete the objective, but you don't get to try again and the world is changed by your choice. Other reflected world you visit will be influenced by these decisions too, making your actions follow you.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflected Worlds?
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:55 pm 
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Mr Infinity wrote:
When you say that we are able to freely travel between servers, each with countless RW i suppose, how will the social building aspect be handled? Like, will the fort i build with my guild carry through other servers and RW? Or just RW from the current server? Or just the RW i am in?


I think you are getting lost in the idea of different RWs. The simple fact is, any player can travel to any guild, as simple as walking into a portal and choosing to go there. Servers don't matter, you can go where you will when you want.

Mr Infinity wrote:
And furthermore, how big is the citadel? Is it the main world where i can build my house?


The size of the Citadel... are you referring to the Reflected World it is built on or the city itself? As for the World, it is the same size as all other RWs, 900 million sq. kilometers. The citadel itself, as in the city, is large enough to house everything you need as home base. It has about 2,500 NPCs living and working in it, for example.

However, you do not build anything in the Citadel, anything you build, (Guild Hall, Housing, Business) will be at your Guild location or at a Garrison, which are in other locations on the RWs.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflected Worlds?
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:00 pm 
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Mr Infinity wrote:
how would they handle the damage done in the guild city from a mob in x RW or players invading from many RW.


Your Guild is in safe Citadel lands, and will not be attacked, nor can players attack it as there is no open world PVP. Your Guild is a safe haven for your members and for the Guild town that you can develop around it for any player to visit to take advantage of services offered by the player run businesses.

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