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 Post subject: Combat styles
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:08 am 
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What are the combat styles you like in MMO games, and why? What do you think the combat is going to be like in CoS based on little bits the devs have dropped?


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 Post subject: Re: Combat styles
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Bookkeeper wrote:
What are the combat styles you like in MMO games, and why? What do you think the combat is going to be like in CoS based on little bits the devs have dropped?


Well as normal I think there has been the odd thread about this but can't find it. I believe it will be very tactical and brutal at the same time. It has been mentioned that the tank/aggro approach will not work for one. NPCs/Monsters that have been annoyed to the point of fighting will be very single minded.

This game from what I have read is also not solely about combat ; many many ways to skin a rat.

I think for sure they will be ensuring the Holy trinity is assigned to the dustbin as everyone can learn a little of everything ......

Other than that I am sure Jatar will add something ; Once you have...

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 Post subject: Re: Combat styles
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:08 pm 
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I got tired of the targeted combat systems that so many MMOs have. After playing a lot of Mount And Blade as well as Skyrim, I've come to prefer that kind of "twitch" combat anymore. But from what I've read, CoS is supposed to have a more strategic targeted combat system, which is a system I've never played before and am quite curious about.

I don't remember which post mentions combat either, but I emailed the CoS team several times before these boards came up. Here's what they said in a few of their responses on combat:

"As for combat, the concept of whack a mole just means you mash whichever attack is available to you as your icons recharge. CoS uses a far higher system of strategy in combat, which is done through several different systems. Different attacks work better in different situations, for one thing, so knowing your opponent will help, but there are many other elements as well, like the chaining system we are using, which allows a player to build up power if used certain ways. In addition to that there are many other elements that we just haven’t released yet, but all of them tie into the fact that players must use their brain and make the best choices of strategic use of their Abilities to get the best outcome. A player that just mashes icons will still fight, but be the equivalent of a lousy fighter and get about the same results. We reward players using their heads in CoS."

"Players will be able to use a shield offensively if they choose to learn those abilities (and use the ability in combat). Regardless of that, shields add to the passive defense of a PC while equipped, though the PC must be both aware and active. ‘Aware’ means they are in combat mode, ‘active’ means they are not currently disabled or unconscious."

I'm guessing those are answers for public comsumption. This post might be sensored if I'm wrong :( .


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 Post subject: Re: Combat styles
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:20 am 
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A turn-based strategy combat system is, unfortunately, not the best format for a MMO for a number of reasons, but I would be pleasantly surprised if CoS turns out this way. Of course, real time strategy isn't a bad choice for multiplayer.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat styles
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:30 am 
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Isane wrote:
Bookkeeper wrote:
What are the combat styles you like in MMO games, and why? What do you think the combat is going to be like in CoS based on little bits the devs have dropped?


Well as normal I think there has been the odd thread about this but can't find it. I believe it will be very tactical and brutal at the same time. It has been mentioned that the tank/aggro approach will not work for one. NPCs/Monsters that have been annoyed to the point of fighting will be very single minded.

This game from what I have read is also not solely about combat ; many many ways to skin a rat.

I think for sure they will be ensuring the Holy trinity is assigned to the dustbin as everyone can learn a little of everything ......

Other than that I am sure Jatar will add something ; Once you have...


Here is a Combat Stance thread that you may be referring to.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=203


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 Post subject: Re: Combat styles
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:11 am 
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CenCal wrote:
Isane wrote:
Bookkeeper wrote:
What are the combat styles you like in MMO games, and why? What do you think the combat is going to be like in CoS based on little bits the devs have dropped?


Well as normal I think there has been the odd thread about this but can't find it. I believe it will be very tactical and brutal at the same time. It has been mentioned that the tank/aggro approach will not work for one. NPCs/Monsters that have been annoyed to the point of fighting will be very single minded.

This game from what I have read is also not solely about combat ; many many ways to skin a rat.

I think for sure they will be ensuring the Holy trinity is assigned to the dustbin as everyone can learn a little of everything ......

Other than that I am sure Jatar will add something ; Once you have...


Here is a Combat Stance thread that you may be referring to.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=203


Ah you star I was sure I had raised something similar and we had responses from Jatar in the thread.....

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 Post subject: Re: Combat styles
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:52 am 
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As previously mentioned, combat in CoS will be an icon based system. This means you will be selecting an opponent and then deciding what action to take by choosing which Ability to use at this moment. To affect multiple opponents you will still select one and then use an AOE, multi-target, directional, or other style Ability that can hit more than one target.

This is the basic style of combat, but by no means even close to everything. Some of the combat system has to remain secret for now, for several reasons. The first is that we are still testing and modifying our system, so it will change, and we hate to say things in forums that aren't going to be absolutely true in the final game. Second, like many other areas where I have kept things hidden, this ties into a major piece of the game that we are keeping under wraps. That part adds a lot of strategy to the combat and requires players to do some thinking about what they are doing at any given moment of the battle, they can't just pick an opponent and mash attack Abilities until one of them dies... well, I suppose they could do that, but it wouldn't be the best way to win, and likely get them killed.

Beyond those areas we are keeping secret, there are some other parts of the combat system, things like chain/gambling choice, where you can go for extra potent attacks, but are gambling at the same time that you will be able to cash in on that extra damage. (More on that later)

CoS also employs a new system (we haven't seen it before) in how damage is dealt to players. Without going into the mechanics of it, the concept is that when an opponent attempts to do you harm in the early parts of a bout, you will be able to dodge physical attacks, or mentally avoid magic. Avoiding these attacks takes from your Vitality or Concentration. As you wear down physically or mentally, those attacks might finally start getting through. This is a bad thing, as once you do take real damage... it's serious.

The idea behind the concept is real battle, but one that lasts. The whole 'one shot one kill' deal in some combat games is neat... to a point. The problem is that you get taken out too quickly in many cases and can't have time to plan and execute your strategy, bang, you're dead. Or in a fantasy game example, a dragon flies over you, blasts you once and you're dead, and you didn't even see it coming. You are walking along, minding your own business and, you're dead.

Our system allows players to exchange blows and use other Abilities early in the battle without doing physical harm (or without doing too much), but this does do a different type of damage, it is wearing you down. As you get worn down you might start taking real damage (health). So the battle lasts a while, yet if you really get hit by an ax, it does the kind of damage an ax should really do. Imagine a sword fight (a real one). The combatants parry and feint, they might wound one another slightly, but not really run them through or hack their head off. Eventually a major blow gets through and they take serious damage, which is usually the end of the matter. This is how our system works. You get to see the loss of Vitality or Concentration that is the toll of early blows, so you know if you are wearing them down, or if you are getting worn down. This shows you how you are doing up to the point where you or your opponent will start to take serious damage.

Among other things, this allows you to take on more powerful opponents (than you), and see how you are doing early on without getting killed instantly. So, if you see that you are wearing down swiftly and your opponent is hardly tired at all, you might want to consider showing a good set of heels, or calling for help (if you have companions).

All of this doesn't even touch the main strategy elements in our combat that I can't talk about yet, but you can get a little idea of just some of the things involved. You will need to consider each and every Ability you use, and in what order at what moment against what type and condition of each opponent. You will need to consider tactics as far as position, and the battlefield around you (cover, high ground, etc.). You will need to keep track of your companions and work together (when in groups), since your opponents will do so against you. You will need to monitor more than your health, including Vitality, Concentration (and several other factors we aren't talking about yet). You can also gamble with certain strategies, and try to fool your opponents with other strategies (areas we are still developing and aren't talking about yet).

There, I have danced around the stuff we aren't telling you, and given you some new things to think about in a few areas about our combat. The last thing I want to mention is that new players (or even just new to our game) will not have this entire combat system thrown at them day one. The game uses a graduated system of increasing choice. This means that day one the combat will be pretty simple to master, and once you have that down, it adds in a new wrinkle, etc. You won't see the entire scoop of combat strategy options until you have played pretty deep into the game. This way you need to keep learning and adapting, changing your tactics as you progress in the game, and new players can enjoy the game without having to learn too much too fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat styles
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:08 am 
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Jatar wrote:
As previously mentioned, combat in CoS will be an icon based system. This means you will be selecting an opponent and then deciding what action to take by choosing which Ability to use at this moment. To affect multiple opponents you will still select one and then use an AOE, multi-target, directional, or other style Ability that can hit more than one target.

This is the basic style of combat, but by no means even close to everything. Some of the combat system has to remain secret for now, for several reasons. The first is that we are still testing and modifying our system, so it will change, and we hate to say things in forums that aren't going to be absolutely true in the final game. Second, like many other areas where I have kept things hidden, this ties into a major piece of the game that we are keeping under wraps. That part adds a lot of strategy to the combat and requires players to do some thinking about what they are doing at any given moment of the battle, they can't just pick an opponent and mash attack Abilities until one of them dies... well, I suppose they could do that, but it wouldn't be the best way to win, and likely get them killed.

Beyond those areas we are keeping secret, there are some other parts of the combat system, things like chain/gambling choice, where you can go for extra potent attacks, but are gambling at the same time that you will be able to cash in on that extra damage. (More on that later)

CoS also employs a new system (we haven't seen it before) in how damage is dealt to players. Without going into the mechanics of it, the concept is that when an opponent attempts to do you harm in the early parts of a bout, you will be able to dodge physical attacks, or mentally avoid magic. Avoiding these attacks takes from your Vitality or Concentration. As you wear down physically or mentally, those attacks might finally start getting through. This is a bad thing, as once you do take real damage... it's serious.

The idea behind the concept is real battle, but one that lasts. The whole 'one shot one kill' deal in some combat games is neat... to a point. The problem is that you get taken out too quickly in many cases and can't have time to plan and execute your strategy, bang, you're dead. Or in a fantasy game example, a dragon flies over you, blasts you once and you're dead, and you didn't even see it coming. You are walking along, minding your own business and, you're dead.

Our system allows players to exchange blows and use other Abilities early in the battle without doing physical harm (or without doing too much), but this does do a different type of damage, it is wearing you down. As you get worn down you might start taking real damage (health). So the battle lasts a while, yet if you really get hit by an ax, it does the kind of damage an ax should really do. Imagine a sword fight (a real one). The combatants parry and feint, they might wound one another slightly, but not really run them through or hack their head off. Eventually a major blow gets through and they take serious damage, which is usually the end of the matter. This is how our system works. You get to see the loss of Vitality or Concentration that is the toll of early blows, so you know if you are wearing them down, or if you are getting worn down. This shows you how you are doing up to the point where you or your opponent will start to take serious damage.

Among other things, this allows you to take on more powerful opponents (than you), and see how you are doing early on without getting killed instantly. So, if you see that you are wearing down swiftly and your opponent is hardly tired at all, you might want to consider showing a good set of heels, or calling for help (if you have companions).

All of this doesn't even touch the main strategy elements in our combat that I can't talk about yet, but you can get a little idea of just some of the things involved. You will need to consider each and every Ability you use, and in what order at what moment against what type and condition of each opponent. You will need to consider tactics as far as position, and the battlefield around you (cover, high ground, etc.). You will need to keep track of your companions and work together (when in groups), since your opponents will do so against you. You will need to monitor more than your health, including Vitality, Concentration (and several other factors we aren't talking about yet). You can also gamble with certain strategies, and try to fool your opponents with other strategies (areas we are still developing and aren't talking about yet).

There, I have danced around the stuff we aren't telling you, and given you some new things to think about in a few areas about our combat. The last thing I want to mention is that new players (or even just new to our game) will not have this entire combat system thrown at them day one. The game uses a graduated system of increasing choice. This means that day one the combat will be pretty simple to master, and once you have that down, it adds in a new wrinkle, etc. You won't see the entire scoop of combat strategy options until you have played pretty deep into the game. This way you need to keep learning and adapting, changing your tactics as you progress in the game, and new players can enjoy the game without having to learn too much too fast.


Excelent Excelent post............

The element that works for me is the real health element something sadly missing that I have thought about; The mechanics of health loss being a serious problem is great and I guess ties in with the view in this game that it is not all about dieing.

Are you going to have surrender options that can be triggered on taking health damage that will come into play before opponents have decided to kill you anyway or is it just going to be the run for your life option....

So the other question is are you going to allow any trigger type abilities ? I guess a soft form of macro if this is going to be so tactical. As generally something that has tactical depth generally needs to be turn based difficult in a persistant multi tennented world. All of this is just getting too much some of your concepts and approach seem to be wrapped up in so much common sense; I thought that this type of development was a thing of the past maybe I was wrong , loving the concepts.

My normal rules are don't get over excited or start to set expectations , I think I have just gone over the cliff with 'The Cirtadel'

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 Post subject: Re: Combat styles
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:42 am 
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Isane wrote:
Excelent Excelent post............

The element that works for me is the real health element something sadly missing that I have thought about; The mechanics of health loss being a serious problem is great and I guess ties in with the view in this game that it is not all about dieing.

Are you going to have surrender options that can be triggered on taking health damage that will come into play before opponents have decided to kill you anyway or is it just going to be the run for your life option....

So the other question is are you going to allow any trigger type abilities ? I guess a soft form of macro if this is going to be so tactical. As generally something that has tactical depth generally needs to be turn based difficult in a persistant multi tennented world. All of this is just getting too much some of your concepts and approach seem to be wrapped up in so much common sense; I thought that this type of development was a thing of the past maybe I was wrong , loving the concepts.

My normal rules are don't get over excited or start to set expectations , I think I have just gone over the cliff with 'The Cirtadel'


Yes, surrender is a part of our game options, you may surrender to your enemy, and they may surrender to you. There are also other states, like being disabled or unconscious, these are between being healthy and able to fight, and dead. If you are disabled you are unable to fight, and if your opponent finishes you off there is little you can do, but if they don't, then you might be able to recover eventually. Unconscious is even worse, your opponent could still choose to finish you off, but even if they don't, you can't do anything for yourself... but your companions could. So when an opponent goes down, either disabled or unconscious, you may perform a coup de grace and finish them, or you may choose not to kill them so you can question, ransom or imprison them later. The same goes for you, if you are put into one of these states (or you surrender) you can then be captured, tortured (yes, we have our ways muahahahaha) or imprisoned.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat styles
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:53 am 
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Ahhh, all very nice. I really like the learn more as you go along aspect of combat. Anything that keeps a game fresh and interesting months into playing it is always a very good thing.

And I'm glad you don't have the "one shot , one kill" aspect included in combat. When I was beta testing Vanguard I would run through the grasslands with my 500 hit points, then suddenly a giant monster would pop out of no where and chase after me. I couldn't out run it, so it would hit me once for 2000 damage and the fight would be over.

Hmmm. Wasn't that a fun experience :( .


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