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 Post subject: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:33 pm 
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I would call a good example of Dynamic Combat "Devil May Cry" where our character interacts fully with the environment and monsters. I always wanted something like that for a mmorpg, even knowing that it is extremely hard if not impossible with the current technology. And then there is Tera, that is still far from what I would like to have, but quite decent. Guild Wars 2 also took a similar approach.

Personally, in a MMORPG I like these new concept if not exaggerated, I still want to play an RPG (Dungeons&Dragons), not an action game (Vindictus).

So how dynamic will the combat be in CoS?


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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Hmm, for those of us who haven't played those games, could you please be a little more specific in what you mean by "interacts fully with the environment and monsters"? Maybe give an example of what a dynamic combat fight would be like.


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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:31 am 
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Youtube is your friend.... being more specific would be advertising other games, and I don't even like 2 of them.

It follows a simple rule, when you attack there is no target, if something is in the range of your attack it will hit, if not your attack is just striking the air. Same with spells, if you cast a fireball it will travel a certain distance, if nothing is on the way it will hit nothing.
Greater complexity can be added such evasion skills that allow you to leap forward or backwards, jumping skills that allow you to use walls and objects as platforms, aerial combat in mid jump, etc.

Action games tend to work like that, some mmorpgs tried to adapt part of the concept into there combat system. Wile dynamic combat is interesting and makes gameplay less boring, if you go too far in its implementation the game stops being an rpg with combat based on strategy and becomes an action game based on action/reaction timers.


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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:24 am 
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Basically what he's asking is : would combat be twitch-based, fast-paced and with no targeting? I wouldn't mind that (and yes I did enjoy devil may cry with all its cheesiness), but it tends to make gameplay less strategic. For a game like Citadel of Sorcery where strategy and sound reasoning is important I would feel a disconnect. Either way, I would be pleased with anything the devs would throw at us if quests are as engaging as planned.

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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:37 am 
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Dragonhand wrote:
Youtube is your friend.... being more specific would be advertising other games, and I don't even like 2 of them.

It follows a simple rule, when you attack there is no target, if something is in the range of your attack it will hit, if not your attack is just striking the air. Same with spells, if you cast a fireball it will travel a certain distance, if nothing is on the way it will hit nothing.
Greater complexity can be added such evasion skills that allow you to leap forward or backwards, jumping skills that allow you to use walls and objects as platforms, aerial combat in mid jump, etc.

Action games tend to work like that, some mmorpgs tried to adapt part of the concept into there combat system. Wile dynamic combat is interesting and makes gameplay less boring, if you go too far in its implementation the game stops being an rpg with combat based on strategy and becomes an action game based on action/reaction timers.


Ahh, well, reading would be your friend, if you would bother to do so before asking questions: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=1140

If you scroll down you will see Jatar's take on combat in that thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:24 am 
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Lonfer wrote:
Dragonhand wrote:
Youtube is your friend.... being more specific would be advertising other games, and I don't even like 2 of them.

It follows a simple rule, when you attack there is no target, if something is in the range of your attack it will hit, if not your attack is just striking the air. Same with spells, if you cast a fireball it will travel a certain distance, if nothing is on the way it will hit nothing.
Greater complexity can be added such evasion skills that allow you to leap forward or backwards, jumping skills that allow you to use walls and objects as platforms, aerial combat in mid jump, etc.

Action games tend to work like that, some mmorpgs tried to adapt part of the concept into there combat system. Wile dynamic combat is interesting and makes gameplay less boring, if you go too far in its implementation the game stops being an rpg with combat based on strategy and becomes an action game based on action/reaction timers.


Ahh, well, reading would be your friend, if you would bother to do so before asking questions: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=1140

If you scroll down you will see Jatar's take on combat in that thread.


Lonfer long time since i read that thread hopefully more of the mechanics will spill over the next couple of weeks.

One thing for sure is that a lot of the dynamics , are going to be generated with choice and the way abilities are integrated into the core of how the world works , so you can use this to your advantage.

I am going to go for Cliff tipping and Drowning tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:31 am 
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The other threads cover some aspects of combat but does not answer my question, will there be some sort of dynamic combat? From 1% dynamic to 100% there is a large margin, I wanted to know if they are considering to use the concept at all and if yes, to what extent.

Maybe I am missing some peace of text... but I think I got all of it and haven't found an answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Dragonhand wrote:
The other threads cover some aspects of combat but does not answer my question, will there be some sort of dynamic combat? From 1% dynamic to 100% there is a large margin, I wanted to know if they are considering to use the concept at all and if yes, to what extent.

Maybe I am missing some peace of text... but I think I got all of it and haven't found an answer.


If you're not content with the info released on these boards, then the information your asking for might be part of the secret info they can't comment on yet. Although from what I've gathered in the answers given, combat is based on targeting opponents and not "twitch" combat. From what I've experienced in playing those different types of combat systems, targeting systems often aren't very dynamic, or at least not as much as twitch systems. But that's just my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:43 pm 
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Lonfer wrote:
If you're not content with the info released on these boards, then the information your asking for might be part of the secret info they can't comment on yet. Although from what I've gathered in the answers given, combat is based on targeting opponents and not "twitch" combat. From what I've experienced in playing those different types of combat systems, targeting systems often aren't very dynamic, or at least not as much as twitch systems. But that's just my opinion.


I've played on some targeting systems that incorporate a little dynamism like basic evasion. Well if they can't release that information yet is is ok, I am also leaving my opinion on the subject and trying to promote discussion around it, since it is a trend that started to show on new games, some successful wile others not.


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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:48 pm 
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Lonfer wrote:
Dragonhand wrote:
The other threads cover some aspects of combat but does not answer my question, will there be some sort of dynamic combat? From 1% dynamic to 100% there is a large margin, I wanted to know if they are considering to use the concept at all and if yes, to what extent.

Maybe I am missing some peace of text... but I think I got all of it and haven't found an answer.


If you're not content with the info released on these boards, then the information your asking for might be part of the secret info they can't comment on yet. Although from what I've gathered in the answers given, combat is based on targeting opponents and not "twitch" combat. From what I've experienced in playing those different types of combat systems, targeting systems often aren't very dynamic, or at least not as much as twitch systems. But that's just my opinion.


No it's icon based but very very dynamic.... let me dig a few quotes. You damage an NPC badly with half decent A.I they will nail you regardless of anyone else trying to stop em. Heres all i can find:

Combat: Concept of toying then death at exhaustion

As previously mentioned, combat in CoS will be an icon based system. This means you will be selecting an opponent and then deciding what action to take by choosing which Ability to use at this moment. To affect multiple opponents you will still select one and then use an AOE, multi-target, directional, or other style Ability that can hit more than one target.

This is the basic style of combat, but by no means even close to everything. Some of the combat system has to remain secret for now, for several reasons. The first is that we are still testing and modifying our system, so it will change, and we hate to say things in forums that aren't going to be absolutely true in the final game. Second, like many other areas where I have kept things hidden, this ties into a major piece of the game that we are keeping under wraps. That part adds a lot of strategy to the combat and requires players to do some thinking about what they are doing at any given moment of the battle, they can't just pick an opponent and mash attack Abilities until one of them dies... well, I suppose they could do that, but it wouldn't be the best way to win, and likely get them killed.

Beyond those areas we are keeping secret, there are some other parts of the combat system, things like chain/gambling choice, where you can go for extra potent attacks, but are gambling at the same time that you will be able to cash in on that extra damage. (More on that later)

CoS also employs a new system (we haven't seen it before) in how damage is dealt to players. Without going into the mechanics of it, the concept is that when an opponent attempts to do you harm in the early parts of a bout, you will be able to dodge physical attacks, or mentally avoid magic. Avoiding these attacks takes from your Vitality or Concentration. As you wear down physically or mentally, those attacks might finally start getting through. This is a bad thing, as once you do take real damage... it's serious.

The idea behind the concept is real battle, but one that lasts. The whole 'one shot one kill' deal in some combat games is neat... to a point. The problem is that you get taken out too quickly in many cases and can't have time to plan and execute your strategy, bang, you're dead. Or in a fantasy game example, a dragon flies over you, blasts you once and you're dead, and you didn't even see it coming. You are walking along, minding your own business and, you're dead.

Our system allows players to exchange blows and use other Abilities early in the battle without doing physical harm (or without doing too much), but this does do a different type of damage, it is wearing you down. As you get worn down you might start taking real damage (health). So the battle lasts a while, yet if you really get hit by an ax, it does the kind of damage an ax should really do. Imagine a sword fight (a real one). The combatants parry and feint, they might wound one another slightly, but not really run them through or hack their head off. Eventually a major blow gets through and they take serious damage, which is usually the end of the matter. This is how our system works. You get to see the loss of Vitality or Concentration that is the toll of early blows, so you know if you are wearing them down, or if you are getting worn down. This shows you how you are doing up to the point where you or your opponent will start to take serious damage.

Among other things, this allows you to take on more powerful opponents (than you), and see how you are doing early on without getting killed instantly. So, if you see that you are wearing down swiftly and your opponent is hardly tired at all, you might want to consider showing a good set of heels, or calling for help (if you have companions).

All of this doesn't even touch the main strategy elements in our combat that I can't talk about yet, but you can get a little idea of just some of the things involved. You will need to consider each and every Ability you use, and in what order at what moment against what type and condition of each opponent. You will need to consider tactics as far as position, and the battlefield around you (cover, high ground, etc.). You will need to keep track of your companions and work together (when in groups), since your opponents will do so against you. You will need to monitor more than your health, including Vitality, Concentration (and several other factors we aren't talking about yet). You can also gamble with certain strategies, and try to fool your opponents with other strategies (areas we are still developing and aren't talking about yet).

There, I have danced around the stuff we aren't telling you, and given you some new things to think about in a few areas about our combat. The last thing I want to mention is that new players (or even just new to our game) will not have this entire combat system thrown at them day one. The game uses a graduated system of increasing choice. This means that day one the combat will be pretty simple to master, and once you have that down, it adds in a new wrinkle, etc. You won't see the entire scoop of combat strategy options until you have played pretty deep into the game. This way you need to keep learning and adapting, changing your tactics as you progress in the game, and new players can enjoy the game without having to learn too much too fast.

Combat: Surrender (Gameplay option)

Yes, surrender is a part of our game options, you may surrender to your enemy, and they may surrender to you. There are also other states, like being disabled or unconscious, these are between being healthy and able to fight, and dead. If you are disabled you are unable to fight, and if your opponent finishes you off there is little you can do, but if they don't, then you might be able to recover eventually. Unconscious is even worse, your opponent could still choose to finish you off, but even if they don't, you can't do anything for yourself... but your companions could. So when an opponent goes down, either disabled or unconscious, you may perform a coup de grace and finish them, or you may choose not to kill them so you can question, ransom or imprison them later. The same goes for you, if you are put into one of these states (or you surrender) you can then be captured, tortured (yes, we have our ways muahahahaha) or imprisoned.
Combat: Death penalty (Gameplay Option)

Yes, the death penalty is so harsh that you would consider surrender. Let's talk about that a little. Games that have no or weak penalties for dying make it so that players don't care if they die. They have nothing to lose, so they act rashly. In a story driven world (like CoS) dying has to matter. You need to want to survive and fear death (at least a little) or some of the story elements just don't work. That, and we want to stop zerg rushes at difficult opponents or situations.

So, our system (which I don't believe we have released yet in full detail) has rewards for staying alive and penalties for dying... and penalties for dying multiple times. Yet... we also do not cripple your character when you die. The full details of this will have to wait for later (we really like our death system, so we want to keep it under wraps for now). But the simple answer is, you will NOT want to die, and so... surrender might be a better option in many cases, though not all. Sometimes a captain must go down with the ship, and just because you surrender, doesn't mean your opponent will accept that surrender. But remember, even if you don't surrender, you could be disabled or knocked unconscious, which puts you in the same state as if you surrendered, meaning, you are captured by the enemy.

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