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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:32 am 
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Sorry if this is necroing a thread but I figured I might as well ask here since it fits the question I have.

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CoS also employs a new system (we haven't seen it before) in how damage is dealt to players. Without going into the mechanics of it, the concept is that when an opponent attempts to do you harm in the early parts of a bout, you will be able to dodge physical attacks, or mentally avoid magic. Avoiding these attacks takes from your Vitality or Concentration. As you wear down physically or mentally, those attacks might finally start getting through. This is a bad thing, as once you do take real damage... it's serious.

The idea behind the concept is real battle, but one that lasts. The whole 'one shot one kill' deal in some combat games is neat... to a point. The problem is that you get taken out too quickly in many cases and can't have time to plan and execute your strategy, bang, you're dead. Or in a fantasy game example, a dragon flies over you, blasts you once and you're dead, and you didn't even see it coming. You are walking along, minding your own business and, you're dead.


So, I was looking at a dev diary of elder scrolls online, and I hated something.. that I hadn't thought of in a long while.

Let's go with an example. Borderlands is great fun, and even more so when you play with a friend.. play with more than 1 friend however and you get introduced to a huge game flaw called "Bullet soaking"

What is bullet soaking?

Bullet soaking is when a mob can stand there taking stabs in crucial areas of the body with only 0.01% of his hp going down. Effectively if you're trying to get an in character experience the only way I can justify this is by thinking I'm actually shooting cardboard bullets.

Elder Scrolls Online has the same mechanic (WoW does too) where a "boss" or stronger than average mob won't actually challenge you in terms of abilities but will just soak a mega ultra metric #### ton of your damage.. for no apparent reason. Will CoS make me feel like my weapons are made from cardboard?

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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:51 am 
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Liefde wrote:
Sorry if this is necroing a thread but I figured I might as well ask here since it fits the question I have.

Quote:
CoS also employs a new system (we haven't seen it before) in how damage is dealt to players. Without going into the mechanics of it, the concept is that when an opponent attempts to do you harm in the early parts of a bout, you will be able to dodge physical attacks, or mentally avoid magic. Avoiding these attacks takes from your Vitality or Concentration. As you wear down physically or mentally, those attacks might finally start getting through. This is a bad thing, as once you do take real damage... it's serious.

The idea behind the concept is real battle, but one that lasts. The whole 'one shot one kill' deal in some combat games is neat... to a point. The problem is that you get taken out too quickly in many cases and can't have time to plan and execute your strategy, bang, you're dead. Or in a fantasy game example, a dragon flies over you, blasts you once and you're dead, and you didn't even see it coming. You are walking along, minding your own business and, you're dead.


So, I was looking at a dev diary of elder scrolls online, and I hated something.. that I hadn't thought of in a long while.

Let's go with an example. Borderlands is great fun, and even more so when you play with a friend.. play with more than 1 friend however and you get introduced to a huge game flaw called "Bullet soaking"

What is bullet soaking?

Bullet soaking is when a mob can stand there taking stabs in crucial areas of the body with only 0.01% of his hp going down. Effectively if you're trying to get an in character experience the only way I can justify this is by thinking I'm actually shooting cardboard bullets.

Elder Scrolls Online has the same mechanic (WoW does too) where a "boss" or stronger than average mob won't actually challenge you in terms of abilities but will just soak a mega ultra metric #### ton of your damage.. for no apparent reason. Will CoS make me feel like my weapons are made from cardboard?


Yes, well, if they are made from cardboard. Otherwise, hopefully not! The thing is, it's not the weapon being made of cardboard that keeps you from damaging a high level opponent, it is the armor they are wearing or their skill level (avoiding your attacks completely). So, yes, there are opponents that you will have a hard time damaging. This is realistic. You run up to a dragon with your sword and it bounces off those dragon scales. This is realistic. Imagine attacking a T-Rex with a knife, good luck with that, and change your name to 'Snack'.

The simple fact is, they are not absorbing your damage, you just aren't hitting them in the first place. Same goes for Skill. If someone is a MUCH better swordsman than you, the fact is you aren't hurting them at all. They aren't being wounded, you attack, they parry. Then they stab you. They aren't absorbing damage, they aren't taking damage.

So, I'm sorry, but there will be times when you face something with better armor or skill (or both) that you cannot likely win. However, CoS has a mechanic in combat that is a bit different. Luck. Even a little human fighting a dragon might get lucky, his sword tip might go in between a flaw in the scales, and just somehow manage to nick that beating heart... it could happen! Personally, I wouldn't bet my life on it, but there is a small... small, chance. And so, our combat system takes this into account, and there is NO situation where there is zero chance of you winning, but that chance could be VERY small indeed.

This goes back to our PnP days when I was DMing a game and one of my players decided to do something heroic and stupid. We would then figure out some ridiculous percentage chance, and let them roll. Most of the time they died in that kind of situation, but once in a while, damn, if that roll didn't come up, and I had to change everything.

In CoS you will know when you are facing a superior opponent with little chance of winning, the game shows you in how fast you fatigue vs. how fast they are fatiguing. It gives you a chance (before you die) to understand the situation you are in, and try to escape. So, unless you want to try for that 1 in 100,000 roll, you might want consider something other than combat at that moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:55 am 
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Dodging, parrying and blocking is completely understandable.. and I'm happy to hear how it's planned out! The things that frustrate me, to give an example is when you just hit, and hit, and hit.. with a very sharp glowy pointy sword you garrote, gouge, backstab and god knows what else.. your damage is the same as usual but the mob just doesn't respond to any of it.. even though he is being hit, cleanly. But the way you've just described combat in CoS is very, very satisfying!

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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:17 am 
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Different systems have different ways of showing a "Boss"'s eliteness (is that a word?)

Some systems make it so hard to hit that when you DO hit, you feel your damage is so small to make a difference.
Others add massive HP to the Boss so a player feels he is doing normal damage, but the combat lasts just as long and is just as difficult.
It depends on the designer's outlook on how players perceive themselves. Do they need the instany gratification of seeing THEIR hits doing massive damage (as they do with normal enemies) or do they want to reflect the reality that a better, bigger enemy will have a few extra HP but more important, it will have much more skill in avoiding your hits and damage.
My take on this system is the latter. Like some PnP RPGs I've played with "exploding" dice (if you roll max on the die, you roll again and add ... keep on as long as you max the roll) a neophyte character just MIGHT be able to stab a dragon. Lucky if you do ... Snack if you don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:11 am 
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In CoS getting hit with an axe HURTS. It's avoiding the axe that is key, and this is key to the strategy and fun of how our system works.

When you finally get tired and hit with that axe, well... be prepared to feel the hit of an axe... and it's not made of cardboard (unless you are fighting someone with a cardboard axe).

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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:17 am 
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Morphael wrote:
unless you are fighting someone with a cardboard axe.


Is that an option? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Wyndyn wrote:
Different systems have different ways of showing a "Boss"'s eliteness (is that a word?)

Some systems make it so hard to hit that when you DO hit, you feel your damage is so small to make a difference.
Others add massive HP to the Boss so a player feels he is doing normal damage, but the combat lasts just as long and is just as difficult.
It depends on the designer's outlook on how players perceive themselves. Do they need the instany gratification of seeing THEIR hits doing massive damage (as they do with normal enemies) or do they want to reflect the reality that a better, bigger enemy will have a few extra HP but more important, it will have much more skill in avoiding your hits and damage.
My take on this system is the latter. Like some PnP RPGs I've played with "exploding" dice (if you roll max on the die, you roll again and add ... keep on as long as you max the roll) a neophyte character just MIGHT be able to stab a dragon. Lucky if you do ... Snack if you don't.



I really like the system of wearing down opponents , and then killing them with a poke to the eye. The fatigue system sounds like it will develop some top class 100m sprinters. ....

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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:33 am 
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I have a question regarding the death penalty that was discussed earlier in the thread.

I realise that you don't want to get too in depth about how exactly it works, but it was said that the penalty will be harsh enough to make you think twice about being stupid.

But I am wondering, if I am out adventuring with some friends and get killed while doing some group activity, will the penalty be so harsh as to keep me from continuing for that session? Will it delay our group progress temporarily, or significantly?

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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:45 am 
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Liefde wrote:
Morphael wrote:
unless you are fighting someone with a cardboard axe.


Is that an option? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Dynamic Combat
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:58 am 
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Tayvin wrote:
I have a question regarding the death penalty that was discussed earlier in the thread.

I realise that you don't want to get too in depth about how exactly it works, but it was said that the penalty will be harsh enough to make you think twice about being stupid.

But I am wondering, if I am out adventuring with some friends and get killed while doing some group activity, will the penalty be so harsh as to keep me from continuing for that session? Will it delay our group progress temporarily, or significantly?

No it will not, the only delay may come if your party cannot res you, so there would be a minor travel time, a minute or so, depending on many factors.

For those with access to webcasts we will be going into the death system in detail next week. See the webcast schedule in Announcements.

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