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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Dragonhand wrote:
These is the oldest story on innovation, and the reason I've grown found of your project is because I understand you have a vision. If the end product will really be good is debatable, many had visions and many failed over the years.

Sadly my support can not extend further then my sympathy and my vast gaming experience when you need testers, as I am currently looking for a job my self.

The idea that you went to the length of creating stuff from scratch, instead of adapting to the existent technology, at least some of it, shows how committed you are to your vision. Every fool can throw his life's money away into a project, not every one can put his brains working for the perfection and progress of it, using new ideas and concepts.

The worst problem of CoS is marketing, or the very lack of it. It costs money and time to make a product appealing, the concept alone of CoS is not enough.

It is like MCdonalds, in the photos the hamburgers look so big and delicious and colorful and...you get the point, but when you buy the hamburger it is half the size and does not look nearly as appealing as it did on the photo. Does it taste good? It does, but it was not the taste that sold, the taste kept us from complaining for not getting something as good as it was on that photo. It is the photo, pretty, colorful and attractive photo that sold the product.

The MCd parabola works on every product you may try to sell. First it needs to look appealing, so you can sell, only after it needs to be appealing so ppl continue to use it.

As always, I wish the best of luck to the project.


Dragon, I think the CoS project and it's current state is fine. Marketing is what it is, but this game is at Pre Alpha !!! So the statement is a little mute, I think a good stake has been placed in the ground and as far as the development of the game goes it seems it is just a matter of when not if ...
And if the truth be know the graphics at this stage mean very little , a lot of people will be sold on the concept alone and the drive of the team developing CoS. And plenty of that is on display visually and in responses to people asking about the game.

The refreshing nature of the way these guys promote themselves beats any flashy picture , now if they were at Pre Release my response may differ but not as much as you may think.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:32 pm 
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Isane wrote:
Dragon, I think the CoS project and it's current state is fine. Marketing is what it is, but this game is at Pre Alpha !!! So the statement is a little mute, I think a good stake has been placed in the ground and as far as the development of the game goes it seems it is just a matter of when not if ...
And if the truth be know the graphics at this stage mean very little , a lot of people will be sold on the concept alone and the drive of the team developing CoS. And plenty of that is on display visually and in responses to people asking about the game.

The refreshing nature of the way these guys promote themselves beats any flashy picture , now if they were at Pre Release my response may differ but not as much as you may think.


Some people just don't get it, no matter how many times you tell them...it's just the primer coat.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:52 pm 
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I want super high gloss cherry red metal flake!

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:15 pm 
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I'm sure it'll be available when ready :)

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:44 pm 
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Isane wrote:
Dragon, I think the CoS project and it's current state is fine. Marketing is what it is, but this game is at Pre Alpha !!! So the statement is a little mute, I think a good stake has been placed in the ground and as far as the development of the game goes it seems it is just a matter of when not if ...
And if the truth be know the graphics at this stage mean very little , a lot of people will be sold on the concept alone and the drive of the team developing CoS. And plenty of that is on display visually and in responses to people asking about the game.

The refreshing nature of the way these guys promote themselves beats any flashy picture , now if they were at Pre Release my response may differ but not as much as you may think.


You look like an intelligent person, sad thing is 90% of the other players do not think like that. Or even if it is only 30% of the other players, the industry does not work like that.

Publishers tend to invest only in stuff that has granted profit. What has granted profit? WoW and every wow clones. Anything that is not a wow clone has a higher chance to fail, only talking about chances. It may be the best thing ever, but there is a risk that it will be the worst thing ever (TSW cof cof, FFXIV cof cof) and the industry rather spend there money in granted profit then to take a chance.

It may not be all the industry... but please do check the biggest publishers and tell me, when was the last time any of them took a chance on something new. It happens but it is rare as hell.

If CoS had a marketing machine making a big Hype on the game, publishers would tend to trust the product's potential. It is not about the potential itself, it is only about trust.

Is it too soon for CoS to invest into that? Maybe, probably, but that is not up to me to judge, it is easy to say such things about some one else's work, is it not?

I'll end with a half famous quote from youtube music videos

"Came for the boobs, stayed for the music"


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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Dragonhand wrote:
Isane wrote:
Dragon, I think the CoS project and it's current state is fine. Marketing is what it is, but this game is at Pre Alpha !!! So the statement is a little mute, I think a good stake has been placed in the ground and as far as the development of the game goes it seems it is just a matter of when not if ...
And if the truth be know the graphics at this stage mean very little , a lot of people will be sold on the concept alone and the drive of the team developing CoS. And plenty of that is on display visually and in responses to people asking about the game.

The refreshing nature of the way these guys promote themselves beats any flashy picture , now if they were at Pre Release my response may differ but not as much as you may think.


You look like an intelligent person, sad thing is 90% of the other players do not think like that. Or even if it is only 30% of the other players, the industry does not work like that.

Publishers tend to invest only in stuff that has granted profit. What has granted profit? WoW and every wow clones. Anything that is not a wow clone has a higher chance to fail, only talking about chances. It may be the best thing ever, but there is a risk that it will be the worst thing ever (TSW cof cof, FFXIV cof cof) and the industry rather spend there money in granted profit then to take a chance.

It may not be all the industry... but please do check the biggest publishers and tell me, when was the last time any of them took a chance on something new. It happens but it is rare as hell.

If CoS had a marketing machine making a big Hype on the game, publishers would tend to trust the product's potential. It is not about the potential itself, it is only about trust.

Is it too soon for CoS to invest into that? Maybe, probably, but that is not up to me to judge, it is easy to say such things about some one else's work, is it not?

I'll end with a half famous quote from youtube music videos

"Came for the boobs, stayed for the music"


This is fairly true. I've been attempting to sell publishers on innovative products for the past 20 years. It's an uphill road every time, however, it can be done. I've done it in the past.

But, it's not a case where they won't take something new, that's not quite right, they just won't pay for the R&D. If you can prove it works and it's fun, and it didn't cost them to find out... they will publish the game. This is how you do it, and this is the plan we have been on all along.

We only did Kickstarter to see if we could get players to be wiser than publishers... obviously, no (at lease the majority of them). But... it's OK, we always thought we would have to make a game this innovative fully playable to sell it, we're still on that plan.

We have some other irons in the fire though, investors are a different group, and we have some very 'investment worthy' advances in technology and tools that they may be interested in backing. We can't show these to players (that would be giving things away), but we CAN show them to publishers, and more importantly, investors.

We're working on it.

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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:56 am 
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Dragonhand wrote:

If CoS had a marketing machine making a big Hype on the game, publishers would tend to trust the product's potential. It is not about the potential itself, it is only about trust.

Is it too soon for CoS to invest into that? Maybe, probably, but that is not up to me to judge, it is easy to say such things about some one else's work, is it not?

I'll end with a half famous quote from youtube music videos

"Came for the boobs, stayed for the music"


See, this is something that actually doesn't sit well with me.

Hype is one of the reasons that players don't trust developers or companies like us, who are genuinely trying to do something different.

Do I disagree with you that marketing works? That would make me an idiot. Of course marketing works. Of course when people see "shinies" they are more apt to lose their self control and buy something.

The bigger question is...is that what Citadel of Sorcery is about?

Instead of developing an engine that is unparalleled in power, and a tool set to create a living world, and develop the most deep and rich quests that have ever existed in a game - Could our wondrous leaders have chosen a different path?

Sure! They could have done what loads of other games do. Make all of the shiny graphics, investing our time in efforts in creating things that have been done before - fancy art and neato effects. Do you think our modelers couldn't make some snazzy looking gameplay with nothing behind it? Of course we could.

Now, would we have been able to sell all of our ideas to a publisher without the backbone we've created? I highly doubt it. And this is where innovation has to break free of the shackles of marketing hype, and of crowd pleasing, and of showing pretty pictures to entice people.

In the end, true change scares people. It makes them wary. Not a single innovation has been met with open arms by the vast majority of society. Instead, it needed to toil and sludge its way through disregard, disbelief, and even hatred. No amount of marketing hype would have players believing what we are saying is true, that we CAN in fact create a world that moves forward in time, and that we CAN make a world that changes based on the choices of the players. Even if we had that fine coat of paint, players do know that what we're saying is incredibly difficult to accomplish.

So, what's my point?

I wouldn't change our path for the world. It's hard. It hurts. Working harder than I have ever worked in my life is well worth it. I know the road we're travelling because I've been playing games almost as long as I've been alive. We know what we have, and we know that when we cross that threshold, we will be changing everything people have come to believe is true about gaming, and that is all the hype I need to keep going.

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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:15 am 
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A couple thoughts I've had about this I wanted to share about the marketing.

Marketing is expensive. Very expensive. I would wager that most of our fans would rather us spend that money on game development in this stage than blasting hype.

We've scoured forums and sites, talked to thousands of players.. one of the biggest reasons for doubt they have is the marketing hype.

In the MMORPG genre, marketing hype doesn't help as much as it used to.. players are way more skeptical of any marketing anymore because of every failed promise that has come before.

Marketing hype is one of the reasons why people can't even start to believe what we're saying is true and that we're doing what we say we're doing.

Personally, I don't trust ANY marketing in the genre anymore. And it's not just the MMORPG genre.. movies, products, political marketing.. the entire marketing business is everywhere, full of false promises and vague truths hidden in the fine print.

Our best marketing will be to make the game that we said we're making.

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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:39 am 
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Raevyn wrote:
See, this is something that actually doesn't sit well with me.

Hype is one of the reasons that players don't trust developers or companies like us, who are genuinely trying to do something different.

Do I disagree with you that marketing works? That would make me an idiot. Of course marketing works. Of course when people see "shinies" they are more apt to lose their self control and buy something.

The bigger question is...is that what Citadel of Sorcery is about?

Instead of developing an engine that is unparalleled in power, and a tool set to create a living world, and develop the most deep and rich quests that have ever existed in a game - Could our wondrous leaders have chosen a different path?

Sure! They could have done what loads of other games do. Make all of the shiny graphics, investing our time in efforts in creating things that have been done before - fancy art and neato effects. Do you think our modelers couldn't make some snazzy looking gameplay with nothing behind it? Of course we could.

Now, would we have been able to sell all of our ideas to a publisher without the backbone we've created? I highly doubt it. And this is where innovation has to break free of the shackles of marketing hype, and of crowd pleasing, and of showing pretty pictures to entice people.

In the end, true change scares people. It makes them wary. Not a single innovation has been met with open arms by the vast majority of society. Instead, it needed to toil and sludge its way through disregard, disbelief, and even hatred. No amount of marketing hype would have players believing what we are saying is true, that we CAN in fact create a world that moves forward in time, and that we CAN make a world that changes based on the choices of the players. Even if we had that fine coat of paint, players do know that what we're saying is incredibly difficult to accomplish.

So, what's my point?

I wouldn't change our path for the world. It's hard. It hurts. Working harder than I have ever worked in my life is well worth it. I know the road we're travelling because I've been playing games almost as long as I've been alive. We know what we have, and we know that when we cross that threshold, we will be changing everything people have come to believe is true about gaming, and that is all the hype I need to keep going.


I couldn't agree more. I'm sure it's (relatively) easy to make another clone of a game already out there, as evidenced by the flood of them. However, y'all have chosen a different path. A much tough path that will have lots of...opposition if you will. In the end though, you will have made something to truly be proud of.

I fully believe CoS could/will be quite successful without a dime spent in advertisement. People talk, a lot. As the game gets nearer release, and even after, news of it will spread. Would a marketing blitz help that along? Sure, but I think the team is choosing to spend their money on making a great game.

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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:22 pm 
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I am a big, big fan of indie gaming. There are a ton of games out there that have been developed by people and studios you've never heard of, who have maxed out their credit cards and taken out a second mortgage on their homes to make the game of their dreams. And many of these games are amazing! In terms of imaginative mechanics and creative play indie developers have tapped into something that Electroblizzvision has forgotten all about.

I don't know if the folks at MMO Magic consider themselves to be "indie" but I kinda think they are. And, oddly, they will probably be the ones being imitated by the major studios when CoS gets to market.


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