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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:02 am 
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Hiya,

about the diminishing returns, will there be a flat map for them? (like when you reach this level in any ability, you only get 0.5 more damage)

Or will each abilities have its own ladder?

Considering the amount of abilities, I'm assuming it's some sort of flat ladder applied to every abilities (otherwise, you're in for a long check on each abilities :D), if this is correct, will they be made public, to save us the trouble and time of using up study points and see that past a certain level, some abilities are no longer really worth upgrading?

I mean, when you start getting 0.01, it'll usually mean you're already quite far in the game, and those kind of extra damage will no longer matter.

What will be the incentive to continue upgrading a certain skill once you start reaching severe diminishing returns?

I'm assuming that in time, a long time, a very long time most likely, people will run out of skills to upgrade, because the only ones left to upgrade will be skills they have no interest in (for whatever reason).

I'll take an example, if memory serve, it was the matrix online (forget how bad the game got, the abilities swapping was quite revolutionary for its time :) ), when you reached L30+, getting a new set of abilities, at that level, rendered those abilities a complete chore, as you had to go back to beginner's mobs sort of speak, and grind the ability levels up for them to be usable for your current quests/mobs.

Although I do understand there's no level per say for npc's, the basic of "easier mobs" will still need to apply, even if only to get a few target practice for new players, or simply for variety (I personally enjoy slaughtering a massive amount of non dangerous mobs, just for the thrill of saying I faced off 200 enemies alone). Will we be forced to look for easier mobs when we reach a very high time in game, and already have several abilities to a very decent level?

Granted, considering how the game is designed, it'll probably take a fairly long time for this to happen to anyone, but considering the game, and the likely commitment of the patrons and above, I could see this as an issue in the future.

Or, for people like me, I could just meet up someone showing me an advanced abilities, and I just NEED to have it, I do understand some work is required, but will there be a way to increase the speed of learning the lower levels skills you might not want to use? For example, let's say I've got a lot of SP in cold/ice magic, will this grant me a bonus toward learning basic skills in other elemental magic?

This to me, would make some sense, since on the basic logic/principle, you either turn the heat up or down, hence, there has to be some common basic to both. Or you could also say that magic is magic, if you reach a fairly high level (concentration/intelligence), picking up new skills and practicing them should come a lot faster, as there has to be some similarities.


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:30 am 
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Our system is quite different from other games you have played. Let's have fun with math:

There are 1890 (unique) abilities, meaning, every one of them is worth getting. Even so, we understand that not everyone will want all Abilities (nor can they really get them and progress them to a good level of power). In fact, most players will have 100 or less. Here is why, though please note the numbers I am about to quote are pre-alpha and we reserve the right to adjust these as we feel like to make the game play better after testing):

You get 4 Study Points per level you achieve.

It takes about 3 hours of active play to go up a level (and this is consistent throughout the game, meaning, as you go up to higher levels this does not slow).

Diminishing returns kicks in somewhere around 100-200 Study points into an Ability. It then has a second level at 200-300, and another reduction level at 300-400 (the range is variance in different Abilities).

Let’s pretend that all Abilities kicked in at 100 for the first reduction, just for arguments sake.
If you applied all 4 study points to the same Ability, that means it would take 100/4, or 25 levels to get a single Ability to reach the first reduction. Each level takes 3 hours, so that is 75 hours or play.

So if you played full time (about eight hours a day), and did not take off for work or weekends except for five hours to see your mom, it would take you approximately two weeks to get one Ability to the first reduction.

To get just 26 Abilities there it would therefore take 52 weeks, (or about a year, full time remember).
To get half the Abilities we offer (1890/2), it would take 945*2 = 1890 weeks, or 1890/52= 36 years. To get all of our Abilities it would therefore take 72 years, of full time, no breaks, 7 days a week, eight hours a day (minus 5 hours a week for your mom/spouse/uncle Bob).

OK, so what if you don’t sleep? And you sit on a porta-pottie, and people bring you food. Now you are going 24 hours a day, every day. It will still take you 24 years to get all Abilities to just the first level of reduction.

So, we’re not really all that concerned about players and diminishing returns.
The fact is, in the first game in the RWs, we expect most players to get about 50 Abilities that they really progress. This means it will take them a couple years (remember, they will progress some additional Abilities to a lesser degree), and not one of those Abilities will hit diminishing returns.

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:38 am 
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Now, just so you know, I'm leaving out some parts of our system, this was just a quick and dirty look at the core of the system. There are a lot of other nuances that I did not go into here, so those will tweak some of these numbers. :)

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:05 am 
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Oki, I can see this not being a real issue then, at least, not until I can retire ^_^.

Although I'm quite sur you can't really talk about it if it's already being worked on, considering the time it'll take to get those abilities, will there be some kind of "heir" system, were your next character, if you wish, will already get a chunk of the parent(s) abilities?

Although, I can see someone not really wanting/needing a 2nd character, some rpers might feel like "killing" their character for good, and introduce a heir or something similar.

I played another game, which had something like that, where the new kids were born from their ingame parents, and the kid would take random features and skills from its parents (physical, stats and skills, and gender). This was great for RP, and also to confuse other players ( as upon one of the parent's death, all the possessions/titles/shops became the property of the heir, which could be a completly different person ingame than the parent).

If that extra question deserves a new thread, I'll create it if needs be :)


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:11 am 
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squishy wrote:
Oki, I can see this not being a real issue then, at least, not until I can retire ^_^.

Although I'm quite sur you can't really talk about it if it's already being worked on, considering the time it'll take to get those abilities, will there be some kind of "heir" system, were your next character, if you wish, will already get a chunk of the parent(s) abilities?

Although, I can see someone not really wanting/needing a 2nd character, some rpers might feel like "killing" their character for good, and introduce a heir or something similar.

I played another game, which had something like that, where the new kids were born from their ingame parents, and the kid would take random features and skills from its parents (physical, stats and skills, and gender). This was great for RP, and also to confuse other players ( as upon one of the parent's death, all the possessions/titles/shops became the property of the heir, which could be a completly different person ingame than the parent).

If that extra question deserves a new thread, I'll create it if needs be :)


No, we are not planning that simply because Fallen Heroes, being "Of the Blood" age at an incredibly slow rate. You don't need to have kids. If players WANT to start a different character (and they can) they will have to progress that character from scratch, but they can do all new Abilities for this one. However, other than for role-playing reasons, it doesn't make sense to start another character since you can just add those new Abilities at the same speed and rate to your first character.

CoS does not have worthless Abilities, at any Tier level. You need all the Abilities you have, no matter when you get them. Example: you could be at Tier 7 and take the Tier 1 Fireball Ability and it is useful, right away, even against Tier 7 monsters. Our whole idea of play is to allow players to travel with their friends at any Tier level and still have a great adventure. The differences in Tiers is not so much about massive changes in Hit Points as it is about changes to strategy and the intelligence of your opponents. You will need more diversity and better strategies to succeed at higher Tiers, not more hit points or Abilities that do more damage.

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:34 am 
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I still have troubles understanding the evolution of a skill, years of learning that more DPS is better, it must have corrupted my imagination.

Let me take a random example, to see if I get it right:
Let's take a fireball, for let's say 50 levels, it increase of 1 or 2 dps, and then when you reach the end of tier2, it also becomes able to track opponents, and no longer a simple ballistic missile? Or do I have it wrong again? :)


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:43 am 
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squishy wrote:
I still have troubles understanding the evolution of a skill, years of learning that more DPS is better, it must have corrupted my imagination.

Let me take a random example, to see if I get it right:
Let's take a fireball, for let's say 50 levels, it increase of 1 or 2 dps, and then when you reach the end of tier2, it also becomes able to track opponents, and no longer a simple ballistic missile? Or do I have it wrong again? :)


Pretty close.

Tier 1 of the Fire line might be Ballistic Fireball. As you put points into it you do increase the damage and possibly the range (just making stuff up here for example sake).

Tier 2 of the Fire line might be Tracking Fireball. Once you get it, (and you have put the minimum required points into the Tier 1 Ballistic Fireball) then each point you now put into Tracking Fireball progresses its power and range, but also adds a point to the Tier 1 Ballistic Fireball. However, that Ability will eventually reach diminishing returns, where the Tracking Fireball is still in it's full range per point added.

Simple math. You have 130 Study Points applied to the Fire Line.
Ballistic Fireball has 100 at full, and 30 at the first level of diminished returns.
Tracking Fireball has 30 at full.

There is a lot more to all this, but this is as far as I want to get into the math. The thing to remember is that every point you put into any Ability will be beneficial, even if it is at diminishing returns, because those same points can benefit the next Tier of that Ability line at full reward level.

Also remember that the Ballistic Fireball may do more dps than the tracking Fireball (in the example above) because it has more points in it, but the usage is different. So if you are up on Tier 7 and want to shoot some monster that Tier 1 Ballistic Fireball is looking sweet for dps, just hope that he isn't a smart enough monster, due to being on Tier 7, that he takes cover. :)

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:49 am 
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By the way, this is only part of what I meant about other nuances in our system. There is yet more to this, but I don't want to write sixteen pages of text describing more math and other details. This will have to suffice for now 8-)

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:27 am 
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Roger that and thank you, it clarifies things a bit for me :)


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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:30 am 
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I read all of this, and I liked it, but then I thought "What's the learning curve on all of this stuff?"

Seems like it could get pretty steep.

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